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Author Topic: Let's talk about how we talk about food  (Read 443 times)
blanche
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« on: February 24, 2011, 03:41:22 PM »

This is kind of my semi-annual post about how we give advice and how it gets heard.

We are all passionate about our animals.  And we love to share our advice.  Sometimes it gets heard as judgment, sometimes it gets heard as "Your vet is an idiot" and sometimes gets heard as helpful.

So let's talk about judgment first.  Bottom line, most of us have real concerns about most of the commercial/grocery store kibbles and canned.  And we have those concerns because alot of us used to feed them and have had problems with our dogs/cats as a result.  As I've mentioned before, my dad was a raw feeder and people thought he was just too cheap buy kibble.  And I was a grocery store kibble feeder for years.  I didn't know better and just assumed that dog food was all pretty decent.  I subjected by my dogs to lots of vet visits, doses of antibiotics and steroids and spent a lot of money trying to figure out why they got hot spots, had nasty ears, etc. 

It wasn't until a vet suggested food allergies and kind of rolled his eyes at me about my kibble choice, that I switched to a grain free kibble and then went to raw.  My dogs did better on grain/chicken/beef free kibble than they did on the grocery store kibble (and I can't even remember what brand it was), but they did best on raw.  So over the course of 30+ years of dog ownership, I've learned about nutrition and grains, etc.  And I might add that right along with learning about canine nutrition, I've been learning about my own issues.  And I do best with no gluten given my arthritis issues (I should be no dairy, but I haven't yet brought myself to no yogourt and no cheese).

So if I sound like an idealogue or doctrinaire, it's because I would love for folks NOT to be out of pocket like I have been due to my feeding practices.  What I'm judging is the food, not the feeder.  I may tell you that the food you are feeding isn't one that I think is a good one, but that's a statement about the food, not about you using it.  I assume most people don't go to the store to get dog food thinking "I'm want the cheapest, least nutritious crap I can feed my dogs" or think "It doesn't matter what my dog eats".  I think most people assume--as I did--that dog food companies are putting out a quality product and that it is safe to feed any and all dogs. 

And many dogs do fine on grocery kibble.  And many don't.  Most do better on a premium no grain kibble.  So there's my judgment section.

Let's talk about "your vet is an idiot".  No, I don't think vets are idiots.  I do think they don't always know what they don't know about dog food.  And I'm not a vet and none of us in the rescue are.  So ALL of our advice is based on our experience.  Mind you, in my case that experience is decades long and the result of having had almost a hundred dogs through my house over the years.  So I have seen the impact of Science Diet, Hill's, Royal Canin (which is actually better than the Medi-Cal) diets.  Yes, some dogs do fine on them.  I tend to see dogs that didn't.  And I have never, ever believed that a vet recommended a food because (1) they were an idiot, (2) had malign intentions to a dog or (3) made a profit off the food so sold it purely because they made money.

I have had many vets argue that dogs aren't allergic to grains.  And some aren't.  But almost without exception, the dogs in my care did not do well on grain heavy diets and in many instances--and Tank is one--were surrendered to rescue because the family was sick of trying to deal with the health issues due to allergies.  And when we got him off of the Science Diet, he did better.  When we got him off of grains, he did even better.  When we got him onto raw, he did even better.  When I got him onto a whole carcass diet (no beggies or fruits added), he did the best he's ever done.  So I can only ascribe this to diet.  We got his pred dose down, we got his thyroid dose down, we went from stinky, frantically itching, black skinned mess to not stinky, way less itchy, lots more pink and pretty healthy.  Yes, I did, in the end, change a lot of other stuff, but we started with diet and that was the beginning.  He had eaten vet diets most of his life and continued to be worse and was placed on higher and higher doses of pred.  His hypothyroid got worse, etc.  Do I think his vets were idiots?  No, but I think he wasn't particularly well managed given the belief system around allergies and food that is practiced.  Do I think his vets were taking his owner's for a ride financially?  No, but I know they spent a considerable amount of money trying to find a diet that worked and failed.

I do think that many vets see the results of "ignorant" raw feeding--not enough research, trying to do it on the cheap or just assuming that throwing down a hunk of beef or chicken on the kitchen floor is appropriate raw feeding?  Yep.  I do think they see raw feeding disasters.

Do I think raw feeding is the answer for every dog in every circumstance?  Nope.  I wouldn't have fed Tank raw when we first came to me because he was so immune compromised that I felt it was risky for him and not only did my "traditional" vet agree (she's not a fan of raw), but my homeopathic vet agreed that we needed to get his pred dose WAY down and his immune system functioning before we even thought about introducing raw.  He was with me a year before we felt that he was "safe for raw".

And going to Whole Carcass was another huge hurdle for me.  I'd never ever fed it and had a hard time getting my brain past the "no fruits or veggies--how can that be okay" hurdle.  And I'm not 100% past that.  But I can't argue with the results I'm seeing.

No need to talk about being helpful.  If we are, great.  It's when people feel slandered/judged, etc that I worry.  Because they may NOT make a change or do the research because of the way they felt treated here.  Now some folks just WILL feel judged no matter how gently we approach the issue--nothing I can do about that.

Here's my bottom line.  If you want to argue with me about food, then I'll be happy to engage and we may very well agree to disagree--nothing wrong with that.  BUT don't argue with me when you haven't done any research.  Don't expect me to agree that grocery store kibble is A-OK when you haven't done any research and are basing your opinion on the fact that, as far as you're concerned, your dog is fine on it.  Maybe he/she is, but maybe he/she isn't.  And if you decide to go with grocery store kibble, then I personally want to hear more than "That's what we've always done" or "My dog is fine" arguments.  I want to know that you've done some research and made an informed decision.  No matter what the decision is--as long as you've done the research, I'll shut up.

Food is a very hot topic.  I've seen more civil discussions about abortion and the death penalty than over dog food.
It's like the breast feeding vs. bottle feeding debate in baby care.  There's a tendency to treat bottle feeding mothers like they are neglectful witches when there may be way more behind it than just "it's easier" (assuming that bottle feeding is easier, which I'm not convinced about).

So there's my little narrative on talking about food.  Yes, we are passionate.  We try hard not to be judgmental.  Readers should try hard to remember that as well.  Our intention is not to make you feel badly, but to help you learn from our experience.
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« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2011, 04:54:55 PM »

Wow, Blanche......an excellent narrative.  Fair, well written and such an important issue for everyone to be careful about making judgements.    

This is what I feel is so wonderful about Pugalug.  Not only a top notch rescue but giving others the education and support that is so helpful.....without making you feel silly or dwelling on mistakes.  I am always impressed at the non-judgemental attitude and focus that we are all trying to learn from each other how best to help our pugs.


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« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2011, 06:44:35 PM »

Well written! And backing every nuance!
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« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2011, 07:47:27 PM »

Well put Blanche!
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« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2011, 07:56:20 PM »

Excellent - I always love reading your posts. Very very well written.
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« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2011, 08:04:45 PM »

LOL.  I've seen some ugly flame wars on the topic of food.  Pugalug is one of the rare forums that has almost no flaming.

However, consider this a prophylactic measure.  And I'm in a diplomatic phase so I use it while I got it.......

And I do want readers to understand that while we will try very hard NOT to be judgmental, they need to try just as hard not to see judgment in every statement.  It's impossible to educate people about dog food issues without pointing out some of the brands that aren't so hot.  And if you're going to be insulted because the brand you feed isn't a good one (in our opinion) well, then, I'm not sure what to do about that.

I think I lay myself pretty bare about the numerous mistakes I've made over the years in my dog care--both nutritionally and behaviourally.  If I can stand to lay out my errors and mistakes, then I think folks can learn from them without getting insulted.
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« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2011, 08:13:34 PM »

I myself take your advice, because I have a dog with similar issues as Tank, and I really can appreciate your education on diet for dogs.
Heck - my mother's pug is as healthy as a horse - didn't come for a reputable breeder, never had typical pug issues YET. She can eat pretty much anything. She is lucky - and my mom doesn't agree with raw - that's fine. She does ask about it etc.. so I try to let her know why I do it, so if there is ever UTI issues, and skin issues she can make changes that might help that. It's just there for those who want to hear it. If people don't like your posts or comments about food - don't read them.
There is a lot of info on this forum, and I can see how sometimes it can get confusing - just because there are so many opinions etc... Personal choice and how your dog is health-wise makes a difference in opinion. I dreaded starting raw with Sami - but that is what she was fed, now whole carccass - when I was at the end of my rope with an immune compromised dog, I was willing to try anything.
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« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2011, 09:33:31 PM »

Well put Blanche Grin
I didn't realize what a sticky subject food was. The forum is great
because you can take bits and pieces from different people and make up
your own mind. I enjoy reading about different ideas, some you use and some you
don't.
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« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2011, 01:10:48 PM »

Well said blanche, and you're right .. this forum is very cordial for sure.  No flaming and even hardly any strong disagreements or arguments ... I can tell you that as someone who admins on several large forums, that this is very rare Smiley

I would like to point out that human nutrition also really gets people going as well as there are many different schools of thought there.  A friend's partner is a nutritionist and has told me some scary stories about the things people try to feed themselves to "be healthy" -- things that make absolutely zero sense ... so when you think that they will do these sorts of things to themselves and their loved ones imagine how much less thought is put into it when it comes to their pets! Sad
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