RAW Feeding or aka BARF

[lmcpug]

RAW Feeding or aka BARF

[lmcpug]

Posted by Pugpillow on: Sat Feb 11, 2006 12:51 pm

Aaaahhh, raw. I just LOVE it and become obnoxious on the subject. It's called the BARF diet - Biologically Appropriate Raw Food - and there's lots of information on the internet about it. One of the easiest ways to learn about it is from one of the originators - Dr. Ian Billinghurst, an Australian vet. His website is http://www.drianbillinghurst.com/

Yes it is raw, uncooked meat (and poultry and fish). And yes, you feed the raw bones too. And you don't have to worry about salmonella. And weight management is a lot easier because the dog is processing almost all of the food going into them; the digestive system is working more efficiently. Side benefit - less poop.

You can buy stuff premade but it tends to be expensive if you have multiple dogs (I have four). I also like to make my own so that I know exactly what is going into them and can adjust for dietary peculiarities. I have three senior dogs and can tailor the food to account for arthritis, vulnerability to yeast infections, etc. Some people find it time-consuming to make the food. I don't. I figure it takes me about 1/2 hour to make up about 20-25 portions of breakfast slop (which I freeze and defrost as needed) and no extra time to feed the evening meal, which is a choice of raw meaty bones, fish or green tripe. Easy, they love it and it's good for them.

If you're interested, I can send you a write-up I've done which describes how and what I feed my lot, including a recipe for the breakfast slop.
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Posted by Larry on: Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:46 pm

Dante and Dublin get the BARF (Biologically Appropriate Raw Food or Bones and Raw Food) diet based on Dr. Billinghurst's book "Give Your Dog a bone". You can also research more at http://www.barfworld.com/

They get fed once a day. 5 days of the week they get the raw meaty bones. I chop up either chicken wings, backs, necks, thighs or drumsticks (I have a big meat cleaver). The raw bones contain a natural enzyme that breaks down the structure during digestion. Thus the vitamins, minerals and nutrients are more readily absorbed into the blood.

I sprinkle Solid Gold Sea Meal on the chicken and also give them an omega oil supplement for their coats - Salmon oil, cod liver oil or Flax oil
I will also add a little yogurt or kefir.

Once a week they get a supply of organs (offal) - usually lamb kidney, liver and heart. I will also use beef - heart, kidney, tripe.

And once a week they get the veg. I make up a batch of this on the weekend. The primary ingredient is green leafy vegetables. - spinach, red leaf lettuce, bok choy, swiss chard, collards. I then add whatever vegetable and fruit I've picked up on the supermarket discount cart.
Dogs do not have the enzyme that breaks down the vegetable cells easily.
So to get the most of the nutrients in the veg, you have to break down the cells by either a blender, food processor or juicer.
I have a juicer so i put everything through then bag and freeze a month's supply.
I will usually mix the veg with ground turkey, venison, buffalo or fish. (this is so they get something different than chicken)

So that is the basic feeding plan that my boys get.
The bones assist in removing tarter from their teeth and gives the gums a good workout.
Also the digestive process is very thorough due to the enzyme action. The stools that result aid in the expressing
of the anal glands. Neither Dante nor Dublin have never never once
had to have them expressed - nature takes its course.

The venison is really elk. I get it at St. Lawrence North Market on Saturday. He also has the bison. Down the aisle is the woman who has emu burgers.
The only get a bit mixed with their veg but it does provide and alternative (and it is expensive)

Dublin gets 6 ozs a day and Dante gets about 8 (being the more active terrier type) Dublin gets to lick Dante's bowl when he is done ;>
I also have home cooked and raw recipies from Dr. Pitcairn's book if interested

Hope this helps in making your decision.

[lmcpug]

Posted by Pugpillow on: Tue Apr 04, 2006 11:38 pm

http://www.rawmeatybones.com/diet/exp-diet-guide.pdf

Tom Lonsdale is an authority on raw feeding and promotes the whole prey model of feeding. Here's his diet guide - very informative - and includes feeding instructions for puppies. The guide also includes some important tips.

[lmcpug]

Posted by Pugpillow on: Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:08 pm

http://www.greentripe.com/

This is a website which explains what it is, why it's good and has pictures. The furkids absolutely love it. But it stinks!


Posted by Candace on: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:56 pm

A side note for finding green tripe. Healthy Paws sells it ground up and frozen. Easier to find and not so messy to deal with.
Here is their website. They also list their retailers.

http://www.healthy-paws.ca/

[lmcpug]

Posted by pugpillow on: Sat Mar 04, 2006 6:30 pm


http://www.rawfeddogs.net/Recipes.php  

[lmcpug]

Posted by Ruby on: Sat Apr 29, 2006 10:46 am
is it ok that my douglas is developing a love for ladybugs? twice in as many days i have found him either with a ladybug in his mouth (chomp, chomp) or one stuck to his lip. it was actually pretty funny just now ... you know how pugs always have things stuck to their lips? well, this time it was a live ladybug. he was just sitting there with this poor bug stuck to his lip, looking out the window and chilling.

so, i am guessing that pugs can eat all kinds of insects and that is what pugs do and that is ok? i just want to be sure that i don't have to constantly be checking his mouth if they are harmful in some way.

thanks!
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Posted by Blanche on: Sat May 13, 2006 10:34 pm
Not likely to hurt him and considering quite a few cultures eat bugs regularly--he could do worse--they are a good source of protein. I've actually eaten a few bugs myself--on purpose--when much younger and travelling. Drew the line at roasted Tarantulas--can't do the spider thing.
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Posted by Ruby on: Sun May 14, 2006 1:37 am
:shock:  :shock: roasted tarantulas! :shock: :shock:

[lmcpug]

Posted by pugpillow on: Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:11 pm

I finally found a copy of the vet school student's infamous experiential account. I'm pretty sure it's the one I have been looking for. Here it is verbatim:

"A FIRST YEAR VETERINARY STUDENT COMMENTS

OK, we just started Nutrition on Monday and it's already absolutely
unbearable. I guess I am just hopelessly naive, but I'm not sure I
actually believed until I got there, that they could think it was worth
anyone's time to devote a whole class to pouring dog or cat food out of a
bag and into a bowl. And that a woman who spent seventeen years of post-high school education in veterinary nutrition studies could honestly
think that commercial food is the only viable option to feed pets. She's
not even making an attempt to teach us anything except how to evaluate
dry foods, how to read dry food ingredient lists, how to do all these
ridiculous calculations about Kcal, resting energy requirement, etc.

We had two hours of it today, once at eight and once at four. I didn't go
to the eight o-clock class, because every time I go, it literally ruins
the rest of my day. But, two friends, one raw-feeding and the other doing
her research to start, spoke to the professor at the end of the class
about some things she said that they questioned or didn't agree with.
They tried to pose their questions politely, but apparently the
conversation degenerated pretty quickly.

One of the things they asked about was her mantra, which she regularly
asks the class to _chant_, "pets need nutrients, not ingredients",
meaning, of course, that it doesn't matter what's in the food as long as
the companies guarantee certain nutritional content. My friends brought
up some non-species-specific ingredients, like corn, soy, wheat, etc. and
asked if she didn't see a problem with that. Her reply was that corn gets
a bad rap, that it's a perfect healthy ingredient, and that Native
Americans survived on it well enough, so why not dogs? (I'm not joking)
She also told them that high cooking temps/extrusion doesn't have any
affect on the health of the food at all. When they mentioned raw and some
good results they'd seen with it, she said that George Burns smoked and
drank every day and lived to be 100, but that didn't mean those were
healthy things to do.

She also said that raw is dangerous because of food borne pathogens,
referencing an E coli. 01:57 outbreak at a Jack In the Box as proof, even
though that deals with _humans_ eating _cooked_ meat?!? She then told
them that they're just being influenced by fad diets on the Internet with
no science behind them, and that she shouldn't just believe everything
they hear or read. When they tried to stand up for themselves, she fell
back on the "I'm one of only 50 certified veterinary nutritionists in the
country" as if that ended the argument. They were both so furious they
could hardly speak when I got there.

Then, for our second hour this afternoon, she taught us the nine steps
she uses to evaluate a commercial food if a client wants her opinion. See
what you think of these:

1. The bag, box, or can should contain the phrase "complete and balanced".
2. Products that contain this claim must also follow with one of two
AAFCO statements, i.e. the product was tested through feeding trials or
the calculation method.
3. The label should contain a toll free phone # so you can ask the
company questions if necessary.
4. The product should have a digestibility of at least 80% (you may have
to call the company to get this figure).
5. If you are feeding a dry product, it should contain a preservative
(all of which are completely safe according to her).
6. Reputation of the company.
7. Cost
8. Animals require nutrients not ingredient (this one has about three
paragraphs explaining why corn, soy and other ingredients are perfectly
suitable for dogs).
9. How is the pet doing while consuming the product?

That's it. Nothing about what the ingredients are, ingredient sources. As
long as it fits the above criteria, it's fine in her book. The really
ridiculous thing is, she keeps contradicting herself. She told us about
the experiment where they made a food out of leather boots, old tires,
peanut hulls, whatever, that met the pet food companies nutrient
requirements, but then she stressed that she thought Purina is a really
quality brand of food that has an unjustified poor reputation (she's
basing this on the fact that they claim their digestibility is 84%, which
is supposed to be good, I guess). She also talked about ingredient
splitting and how bad it is, but then showed us several labels of
acceptable (to her) pet foods that had five or six split fractions of one
ingredient.

I could go on with this forever, but I think this letter's long enough
already I just need to blow off some steam; I think I'm going to have
a sneer permanently affixed to my face after a couple months of that
class."

[lmcpug]

Posted by Larry on: Sun Mar 26, 2006 10:47 am
Remember the scene in Milo and Otis where Otis is given the assignment of looking after Gloria's egg. Milo is getting bored and wants to leave but Otis insists on staying because they have a watch dog. He looks up with that noble look, as only a pug can do, and says - "You may not realize it Mio, but today I've become a [pause] watchdog".

Well it wouldn't have made a good scene if Otis had suddenly started to eat the egg - defeats the purpose of being a watchdog. But eggs are a very good source of raw food - and they are inexpensive.

They have all the nutrients required for the growth of a new born chicken. It has a full complement of minerals including calcium, all of the vitamins except C, staurated and unstatured fatty acids, lecithin, enzymes and are considered to have the perfect protein.

Egg yolks are a good food to provide dogs with skin problems. The yolk contains amino acids, biotin, vitamin, EFAs and zinc

You can add one to their kibble or just wisk a single egg and give it as a treat

And finally you can make egg shell powder - which is high in calcium carbonate ( 1 eggshell equals about 1,800 milligrams of calcium)
Dry the eggshell - you may want to do about a dozen at a time so you can story the dried in the regrigerator.
Bake at 300 degrees for 10 minutes. Use a mortar and pestle to grind to a fine powder. Add a teaspoon to their food.

To get the full benefits of all the nutrients, vitamins, minerals and fatty acids you should serve it raw. Cooking does destroy some of the good things that come in the egg.

Larry (I am the egg man, you are the egg man, I am the Walrus) St. Aubin

[lmcpug]

Posted by Marie on: Sat May 05, 2007 6:18 pm
I've been feeding raw for about 3 weeks now and I am amazed by the results. Liam is thriving and any issues he had, though minor, have disappeared. Firm stools, healthy appetite, etc. He has a history of being a picky little eater (!!!?!?!) and the first breakfast he had of raw food banished that, it seems, forever. I'm thrilled with his healthy appetite!
But, I'm terribly confused and concerned. I've done a lot of reading...research...talked to a few different vets, and it seems for every 5 excellent recommendations I get, I get 5 warnings that it's dangerous over the long term.
Can anybody help me out? I want to feed him raw, see great evidence, but at the same time, don't know which way to turn. I don't want to do something that will cause a problem a few years down the road...
It's a controversial issue and a mine field - - who do we listen to? Gambling with our pugs health is scary. Thanks for any guidance you all can offer - I really appreciate any input!

Thank you so much to the raw-food-veterans out there that have been passing on their positive experiences on the Forum. I really appreciate you taking the time.
All of Liam's issues (thank God they were minor) have been addressed on this diet...soft stools, flatulence, itching, toe nibbling, tail biting, and the finicky appetitie...all gone the DAY we began raw!
He is my third wonderful little pug, and imagine my shock when he had a picky appetite...he was never a robust eater. Until April 15th...the day we began raw. Not a single negative effect so far. In fact, I even think his behaviour is different...he seems more mellow and laid back...less high-strung....very relaxed...like he's on his "day off" every day...a happy little boy.
Marie
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Posted by pugpillow on: Sat May 05, 2007 9:27 pm
Hey, Marie, glad you took the plunge!!! And great to see you posting. I'd love to see pics of Liam now.

I'm VERY biased towards raw feeding but I have done a LOT of research in the last 3 years and am more convinced than ever that it's the way to go. But you're right, the subject is a minefield. I have learned that vets are generally not reliable sources of nutrition information as they have very limited training in it and are heavily influenced by the marketing/incentive porgrammes of large commercial dog food manufacturers such as Hill's. It is interesting, however, that more and more vets are now coming round to the raw way of thinking, and I would expect more in the future because of the recent food recalls.

All I can suggest is continued research on your part. If you want some more sources, I an provide lots. But as you say, there is always another source to refute the first. I go with what is logical to me, what others' experiences are over the long term and, most important, what I have experienced in my own dogs' health. And already you have seen some of the remarkable difference.

I understand people's reluctance to make such a radical change to raw. After all, we have been brainwashed and mass-marketed for decades. But commercial dogfood has only been around for the lifetime of our grandparents. So we are simply reverting back to what our dogs ate before 1900. It's the kibbles and canned that are the newcomers on the block.
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Posted by Blanche on: Sun May 06, 2007 5:08 pm
Ditto here on the raw feeding. It saved the life of my BC cross--now at the bridge at the age of 12 or 13 or 14 or older depending on whos best guess you go with. I fed her raw and no grain kibble for 9 of the 11 years we had her.
My vet did say that she wasn't sure about raw food, but admitted that I had the healthiest set of geriatric dogs with great teeth (those that had teeth when they came to me).
I'm careful with it, however, as it doesn't work for every dog. Quite a few pug owners feed raw. And it IS a topic that can get people riled up.
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Posted by Candace on: Sun May 06, 2007 9:52 am
I agree with Hilary. I have been feeding Salvador raw for almost 7 years. No terrible signs have shown up. I think they would have by now.
The important thing is to give the right balance. Research and come up with what is right for your dog.
It is great for dogs with allergies. You can eliminate the foods that bother them. Salvador doesn't do well with eggs or grains, so it is perfect for him.
Sounds like Liam is doing great.
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Posted by lorraine on: Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:59 am    
I switched my dogs over yesterday to only raw. I bought the premade stuff though so I don't need to worry about mixing anything. so far so good. I haven't had any vomiting or diaherria yet. Last night I could hear Jake's stomach making funny noises all night though. Of course they are all in bed with me so I spent my night half awake, just incase I needed to get up quickly! Luckily this didn't happen.

I have them on chicken and veggies right now. The store suggested this for a week and then introduce turkey and veggies. He said most people feed the complete meal for breakfast and then feed chicken necks or spines for their dinner. My sister was asking.... at Christmas, can I give the dogs the turkey giblets and neck?

It is so funny watching them eat. They have all changed. My gobbler chews her food now. Hailey who used to wait until the others where done eating before she'd start is now the first to finish. Can't wait to start seeing a difference. The guy in the store said it could be as early as a couple of weeks. My sister is thinking of switching her dog over now too.
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Posted by Candace on: Sat Dec 09, 2006 11:21 am    
I give my guys the turkey giblets. I am a bit careful with necks, because Mookie tried to swallow a whole chicken neck once and cut off his airway. Luckily I retrieved the neck. He is a little glutton, when he eats. The rest are okay.
I also space my guys far apart from each other, when they have bones. They tend to get territorial over those yummy items!
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Posted by lorraine on: Sat Dec 09, 2006 8:28 pm    
thanks. I'll stay away from the neck for now, at least until I'm used to them eating the raw diet. What about the chicken necks you can buy? The guy at the store said they were the favourite. He told me small dogs usually eat the necks and the spines for for the larger dogs. Should I be staying away from those too? My mum was over today so I showed her my gang eating their new dinner. She couldn't believe it. Hailey my slow picky eater is finished hers before all the bowls are down. I've got my mum thinking the raw diet is the way to go now I just need to convince my sister.
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Posted: by Candace on Sat Dec 09, 2006 11:13 pm    
Most pugs do fine with chicken necks. I fed them to my guys until the Mookie incident. Mookie is just such a little piggy and swallows them whole. He has a very small throat as well. I am just too scared to try them again. I had my back to him, heard a thump, turned around to find him on his side and his tongue grey. He lost control of his bowels, too. I totally freaked, but kept it together enough to compress his abdomen and put my hand in his mouth to pull out the neck. Never again for Mookie. He gets bones that can't fit down his throat.
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Posted by lorraine on: Sun Dec 10, 2006 12:07 am    
thanks. I'll gradually build myself up to them I think. I am so excited about this new diet. I think everyone is sick of listening to me go on about it.
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Posted by pugpillow on: Sun Dec 10, 2006 5:06 pm    
In the early days, Farnsworth tried to swallow chicken backs whole twice and I had to retrieve them. - just stuck my hand in his mouth. He carried on like nothing had happened. But I always watch when they are eating them.

Take it easy on giblets or any organ meat. A little at a time to avoid diarrhea. They're really rich.
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Posted by lorraine on: Sun Dec 10, 2006 6:47 pm    
thanks. so far I haven't had any problems with them pooping or throwing up! The store I bought them from suggested that I give them chicken and veggies for a week and then I can try them on turkey. Everytime I open the fridge the 3 of them sit thinking they are getting fed again. Actually I should say 2 sit, Hailey walks on her back legs begging for more  

this food is great! I just can't get over how much they love it!
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Posted by pugpillow on: Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:40 pm    
What we do for our babies! Today I bought the Christmas turkey. Or should I say turkeys. I bought 2 smaller ones so there would be 4 drumsticks and 4 wings for a total of 8 pugs. My turkeys look very peculiar going into the oven without their appendages and any human who wants a drumstick had better bring their own!
With the turkey drumsticks, I take them away when they get down to the really sharp narrow bone. But they eat the chicken ones down to nothing. Except Josette hasn't figured out the bone part yet, or maybe can't manage it with her worn down teeth. Daisy, on the other hand, can devour the drumstick quite quickly with almost no teeth left. The vet said it is important for dogs who have lost a lot of teeth to get the exercise of chewing bones to prevent their jaw from receding, since they don't have teeth to keep it in place.
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Posted by pugmomx6 on: Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:10 pm    
With Percy & Gertie I pound the chicken a little to help break up the bones a bit. Both are dentally challenged but still manage to crunch the bones. It's the sound of the crunch that took a while to get used to. Despite the lack of teeth they can clean a raw meaty bone just as well as the ones with a full set of teeth, just takes a bit longer.
You'll love the raw poops, small and firm. Sorry to much information!!
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[lmcpug]

Posted br Blanche on: Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:24 pm

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE do your research on what is an appropriate diet for a puppy before you start feeding raw. There are essential minerals and vitamins that a puppy MUST have that are not included in adult formula raw foods.
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Posted by pugpillow on: Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:30 pm

I agree with Blanche. The postings I have made are for healthy ADULT dogs. They shouldn't be used on puppies. For one thing, there's far too much calcium in them for puppies. Since I don't "do" puppies, I have not researched their specific requirements and am not qualified to provide nutrition advice, but my readings have all indicated that puppies' requirements are MUCH different than adults'.

[lmcpug]

Posted by Pugpillow on: Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:41 pm

Someone on another list has compiled a list of sources for whole prey feeding. I don't feed this way, but I do feed raw and am constantly on te look out for new sources at reasonable (okay, cheap) prices. This seems like a pretty long list. If anyone would like me to send you a copy, please PM me with your email address as it's quite long.

[lmcpug]

Posted by Tanya on: Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:09 am
I took Princess to Barker Street today to get a new harness, and I was checking out the different food brands while I was there. I saw Wellness, Canidae, Innova and all the other brands I've seen mentioned here over the past few months.

The sweet lady who ran the place (at least while I was there) gave me a few samples of Canidae and Felidae, and some of Nature's Variety, including one of the Venison Diet frozen patties. I haven't given it to Princess yet (it's defrosting in the fridge and I thought I would try her with a bit of it tomorrow), but I wanted to ask if any of you have tried this kind with your guys, and what kind of luck you've had. I've been thinking about changing Princess to raw but I'm not confident enough that I could make sure she's getting all the nutrients she needs. This frozen stuff seems to be the best of both worlds: Convenient and well-balanced.
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Posted by Blanche on: Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:35 am
Tanya--
It's a good food to use, I think. I do make my own raw, but also feed kibble and keep pre-made frozen raw on hand for when I don't get my act together for home made. I only feed one kibble meal to endure that they get alltheir nutrients and so they won't refuse kibble if I ever have to feed it in a pinch. The pre-packaged is a good one, fully balanced and you wouldn't need to feed a kibble meal like I do.
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Posted by Tanya on: Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:49 am
I figured I would chop up half a patty and mix it with her kibble this morning. Well, she mowed it down and I thought, "Oh, hooray! She likes it! Whoa. Wait a minute. Why are you twirling, you just pooped outside? Oh, noooooooo!!! Not on my Scrubs DVD!"

She peed beside her dish and barfed every bite of it right back up again.
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Posted by Blanche on: Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:30 pm
Oops. She may have eaten it too fast and need it introduced more slowly. None of my older dogs can handle venison for some reason. I use less rich protein sources--like rabbit and goat. They do fine with everything but venison.
Posted by Blanche on: Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:25 pm
Some dogs just plain old don't do well with the game meats. I'd try chicken, lamb, rabbit, buffalo or bison, the less exotic ones. Some don't do well with goat either--although mine do fine. I keep the frozen medallions although have used the patties. I find the amount suggested is often a tad high--I don't give them more than 3 ozs of raw at a time. If she was a big bundle of energy, maybe more, but if she's the Princess I remember--she's never going to be a speed demon.......
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Posted by pugmom on: Fri Feb 23, 2007 2:22 am
I don't know how old Princess is, but some dogs (particularly older ones) need the help of a digestive enzyme as they make the switch from commerical foods to raw or homemade food. The switch often has to made gradually as well. Later, you can cut out the enzyme, after her body begins producing it again. (I understand that something in commerical foods can cause some dogs to stop producing the enzyme completely or to stop producing enough.)

I don't feed raw, but I have made my pugs' food for eight or nine years now and have always fed a grain-free diet. Mine prefer turkey and chicken, with a little lamb occasionally.

Making their food has helped a lot in controlling their seizures and avoiding crystals in their urine. Good luck making the switch.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[lmcpug]

Posted by pugpillow on: Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:26 am
I have recently joined this group which connects raw feeders and various suppliers. It's very helpful and I've recently found 2 new sources of ground chicken bones and whole chicken "frames", one of which is through a buying co-op, and a new source for green tripe. The bonus is that the stuff is even cheaper than I'm getting it now and a lot more convenient to pick up. One of these sources is the one I mentioned above.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CFS- ... =242050548

Here's the description:
This list has been set up specifically to link suppliers of raw food (such as rabbit, beef, chicken, fish, etc) with people looking for supplies for their cats, dogs, or ferrets. This list is not designed to offer advice as to how to feed a raw diet. ...We actively discourage pre-packaged ground foods.

[lmcpug]

Posted by Pugpillow on: Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:30 am


Here's a very useful table which shows the nutritional info of various foods, including protein, fat, phosphorus, etc.

http://www.dogaware.com/kidney.html#table

[lmcpug]

Posted by pugpillow on: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:46 pm


A new forum was started today which I thought some of you might be interested in. It is
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HolisticCarnivoreCanines/

Here's part of the description:
"We are a brand new group open to Dog Guardians & holistic health practitioners in Canada, the USA, and beyond who feed raw species-appropriate foods. Dedicated to learning and sharing information regarding natural methods of maintaining the health of our dogs through nutrition as nature intended and with a holistic approach to wellness.

We seek to discuss species-appropriate nutrition for all breeds of dogs, with a distinct focus on their nutritional needs based on their anatomy and physiology as carnivores.

Whether you are new to feeding [raw] species-appropriate and/or natural health or have been practising these principles for years, you are welcome here. We ask our members to respect others choices for nutrition or healthcare -- there is no one way that is right for every dog -- but please realize this group does *not* accept or consider commercial kibble as a healthy option. We will strive for a balance of information by reading, learning, discussing, and then making our own informed decisions and choices."