Learning from your own stupidity

[blanche]

This is absolutely a case of learning through being a moron. And it's not about pugs, but cats.

I've been a bit of an idiot with my cats, apparently. While I can quote you chapter and verse about canine vaccines, I've not been as vigilant about my feline vaccines. I don't vaccinate annually with my cats and do get three year vaccs for them, but I've had them vaccinated for FIV when I shouldn't have--and ONLY because I didn't do my research.

So here's my learning curve in the hopes that others can glean something from it. And a big thank you to Lisa C. for her help and support in all of this.

So as everyone knows, I euthanized my almost 17 year old black cat today. Right decision given what was happening with him. But the blood work didn't really give us a cause and so my vet suggested a viral scan for FIV--which came back positive. And she suggested I do one on my other cat, Sonny. Since then I've done some research and all cats vaccinated for FIV WILL test positive for it. This is problematic for a couple of reasons--(1) I now have no way of knowing if Sonny is FIV+ or not since he's been vaccinated, (2) Same for Angel--was vaccinated for it and so maybe the FIV caused his demise, maybe it didn't. In Angel's case it wouldn't have changed the outcome since he was clearly dying.

BUT--and this is the real concern if your cat ever gets out and ends up in a shelter--cats that test positive for FIV are routinely euthanized and there's no way to know if the positive test is that they ARE FIV+ or that they've been vaccinated.

And it seems that the vaccine for FIV isn't all that effective. Great.

So I feel like a bad cat owner and a colossal idiot for not being as vigilant about this stuff with my cats as I have been with my dogs.

So I will be getting my research hat on and hopefully, become a better cat owner. When you know better, you do better. Too bad it took me this long to get with the program.

[Candace]

Interesting info. I will be following, vaccinations in cats, more closely. My old cats have passed on, in the last couple of years and now I have my young Layla. She is an indoors cat, so far. That changes some of the vaccinations.

[PuggyMom]

I thank you for sharing this information with us. I've been in similar frustrating situations, where you learn something about pet health after the fact.
I didn't even realize that there was an FIV vaccine until today. The three clinics I worked at didn't use it.
I'm curious if what you described holds true with the feline leukemia vaccine as well. Also are there more then one type of screening test for these viruses? It brings up an interesting point. If you don't know a cats background,(ie stray) is there any reliable test to see if they have Feleuk or FIV?
Off topic although it relates. When my dog Pickle was first diagnosed with IMHA we did a battery of tests. Included was a lepto screen. Although we ordered a great test because it tested for 6-8 serovars (strains) it was just testing for the presence of antibodies. So unlike parvo, distemper and rabies titer tests it did not give a ratio of titer or suggested minimum titer. I don't know if this is just not possible because lepto is a bacteria or if there just isn't enough research or testing done at this time.
Luckily for Pickle he'd never been vaccinated for lepto so when his results came back negative we knew he had not been exposed to it.
A dog that had been vaccinated to lepto would just show a positive, so it wouldn't give a suggestion as to whether they needed to re-vaccinated or not. Just some food for thought.
I've come to realize there's so much we still don't fully understand about vaccines, titers etc. I try to see myself as lucky that although I've had a lot of unhealthy animals they've all taught me so much. They are making me a better more informed pet guardian!
I'll see if I can find more about these viral screens from my co-workers this week.

[blanche]

I suspect that many clinics don't use the FIV vaccine because it's so "unhelpful".  But can't swear to that.

I know that MarVista doesn't recommend it and that quite a few clinics don't carry it.  I am going to check and see if my cats have been vaccinated for it--as I suspect they have since one of them does go out, no matter how hard I struggle to keep him in. 

I can't find a ton of info on the leukemia vaccine in terms of antibody testing.  currently, there is no test that can tell the difference between a FIV+ test due to vaccine and an positive due to having the virus.

The Lisa C. I referred to is an online friend in California who is a cat person and she was one of the folks who began to guide me through this. 

Here's a pretty decent link on FIV vaccs:

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_fiv_vaccine.html

[blanche]

Pugmom--

I sent you a PM with some interesting feline vaccine info from my homeopathic vet, Carolyn Benson.
B

[SpeedyPug]

I have a bit of an odd vaccine protocol with my cats- i just don't do it.  They go through the kitten vaccines and then no more.  I have strictly indoor cats who NEVER go out- no one out in 20 years- and i just don't see the sense.  My vet and i argue about this- he says he's seen 1 case of rabies (from a bat) in 35 years of practice and that I'm taking a chance.  I say 1 case of rabies in 35 years of owning your own vet clinic is pretty dang good and why expose the cats to everything vaccines entail if i don't have to do so?  My two oldest cats died at 17 1/2 and just over 19 so i must be doing something right.  Vet said he couldn't argue that- and it comes down to my decision.  Just seems like overkill.  (let the barrage of abuse begin...)

[Anna]

No abuse from me Shannon.  My girls are strictly indoor so they get the rabies vac (because it's law here) and that's it.  If they don't go out why subject them to more?

[Pugpillow]

Makes perfect sense to me, Shannon.  The incidence of rabies in dogs is also extremely low but I can't legally advise not to vaccinate for it.  I can, however, advocate against vaccinating for other diseases that there is a low probability of the animal contracting.  For instance, I was just told by Dr. Jean Dodds that threr is no need to innoculate against parainfluenza in dogs.  And yet one of the Ps in the DHPP/DA2PP combo vaccine is against it.  We're now recommending that the DPv (distemper and parvo) vaccine be requested instead of the DHPP/DA2PP but most clinics don't carry it .... yet.  As for my own dogs, they don't get it at all (except for the puppy shots and first adult booster) as I think the risk for them is infinitesimal.

[PuggyMom]

I just thought I would add that there is a DAP (Distemper, Adenovirus, Parvo) vaccine available in Ontario by nobivac. It is a 3 year vaccine.
Also there is a single Parvo vaccine available or a Distemper Adeno combo. Our clinic has not been able to find a D & P only combo. These vaccines do give the option of just boosting for distemper or parvo, if a dog does not have a sufficient titer.

[blanche]

I just thought I would add that there is a DAP (Distemper, Adenovirus, Parvo) vaccine available in Ontario by nobivac. It is a 3 year vaccine.
Also there is a single Parvo vaccine available or a Distemper Adeno combo. Our clinic has not been able to find a D & P only combo. These vaccines do give the option of just boosting for distemper or parvo, if a dog does not have a sufficient titer.

LOL--yes, we are trying to encourage our vets to have this one.  so far, most vets don't carry it, but we've added the nobivac as our preferred option in our own Vaccine Protocol.

[luckiest1]

Interesting info re: FIV.  One of my 9 year old cats has recently developed an upper respiratory infection that is pretty severe.  He tends to catch things even though he is an indoor cat.  His brother never catches anything. They are both up to date on their vaccinations.  I took him in last week and they asked me if he had been tested for FIV and I wasn't sure.  According to his records, he has been tested and was negative, which leads me to now understand that he has not been vaccinated either.  So their diagnosis, ruling out FIV, is that he is carrying another virus, probably Herpes or Clamydia, that flares up on occasion causing these symptoms.  However, they are treating with antibiotics for secondary bacterial infection that is probable.  He seems to be getting less congested but still has no appetite. 

[lmcpug]

 
sorry to hear this Lisa!
Which kitty is it??

[luckiest1]

It's Sebastian.....the same one who had the urinary blockage, and the broken paw.  I call him the $5000 cat.

[lmcpug]

LOL!  well now someone has to be high maintenance

Poor Sebastian, one thing after another with that kitty
But definitely get it chk'd out especially the not eating part

[PuggyMom]

Interesting info re: FIV.  One of my 9 year old cats has recently developed an upper respiratory infection that is pretty severe.  He tends to catch things even though he is an indoor cat.  His brother never catches anything. They are both up to date on their vaccinations.  I took him in last week and they asked me if he had been tested for FIV and I wasn't sure.  According to his records, he has been tested and was negative, which leads me to now understand that he has not been vaccinated either.  So their diagnosis, ruling out FIV, is that he is carrying another virus, probably Herpes or Clamydia, that flares up on occasion causing these symptoms.  However, they are treating with antibiotics for secondary bacterial infection that is probable.  He seems to be getting less congested but still has no appetite. 

Once your kitty gets past this nasty upper resp. it might be worthwhile to look into a lysine supplement if he isn't on it already. It helps to boost the immune system, you can get in powder or chew treats through your vet. We have a clinic cat that has herpes and we keep her issues under control with lysine. The Rx Vitamins company also makes an immuno support supplement. Any vet can order these products through vet purchasing. If you can help support his immune system you may have less flare ups Here's some links.

http://www.medi-vet.com/prod-Optixcare_L_Lysine_Chews_For_Cats,_60_Soft_Chews-5420.aspx
http://vetbrandscvp.naccvp.com/?u=vet&p=brands&m=product_view_basic&id=1329007